Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
General
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 07:46 #8734

  • franshei
  • franshei's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 788
  • Thank you received: 102
Has anyone notice that in Japan, Harris is selling Celution IV and in Asia/Pacific (Lorem is part of this region), he is selling both Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV? Go to company website under Products.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 08:25 #8735

  • fas
  • fas's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • May the fat be with you
  • Posts: 3257
  • Thank you received: 1109

franshei wrote: Has anyone notice that in Japan, Harris is selling Celution IV and in Asia/Pacific (Lorem is part of this region), he is selling both Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV? Go to company website under Products.


Looks all the same to me Franshei.



I believe this is all regulatory related- same machine, but depending on use, they have a different designation. They apparently can also sell IntraVase for IV apps in Asia/Pacific and Japan, which should please Dr. Tadashi Mitsuo, since regulatory wise, he should be able to do the same stuff now, which he did in 2009.

Anyway- in the past they had three regulatory designations for the same Celution machine in Europe- CRS - soft tissue. GP - General Surgery and IV i.e. Intravase for cardiac and all intra-vascular delivery methods.



The funny thing to me is, that in Europe Celution (at least according to the website) is not for sale any longer....:whistle:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 12:31 #8736

  • rodney.strongg
  • rodney.strongg's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1237
  • Thank you received: 18
Fas, in reference to Franshei's post, he actually raises a good question as to where the Lorem deal stands if Cytori is selling directly into Lorem's area -- I know that the deal was being renegotiated because of Lorem non-compliance, but that's been going on for a long time.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 13:01 #8737

  • fas
  • fas's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • May the fat be with you
  • Posts: 3257
  • Thank you received: 1109

rodney.strongg wrote: Fas, in reference to Franshei's post, he actually raises a good question as to where the Lorem deal stands if Cytori is selling directly into Lorem's area -- I know that the deal was being renegotiated because of Lorem non-compliance, but that's been going on for a long time.


Rodney- it helps to visit the page in question- on the Asia/Pacific "products page" all distributors (including Lorem) are listed by product -

for celution-

The Celution System is a medical technology developed by Cytori to automate and standardize the extraction and concentration of adult Adipose-Derived Regenerative Cells (ADRCs) in a clinical setting. The Celution System enables real-time access to autologous, clinical-grade ADRCs at the point-of-care facilitating cell therapy through the reimplantation or reinfusion of a patient’s own ADRCs within a single surgical procedure.

LABELING AND SPECIFICATIONS
Celution CRS Brochure
Celution IV Brochure
DISTRIBUTION PARTNERS
Lorem Vascular (Australia, China, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore only)
Inamed Medical Equipment Co Ltd (Vietnam Only)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 13:09 #8738

  • franshei
  • franshei's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 788
  • Thank you received: 102
FAS

I have been monitoring CYTX website on and off for a long time. CYTX has not been selling Celution in EU for a long while.

Regarding sales and marketing, they added Havernick (sp?) onto the management team recently - VP of global sales. I think he has been with the company for a little while. Looks like CYTX has put some efforts into sales and marketing in the past 6 months or so.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 13:27 #8739

  • fas
  • fas's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • May the fat be with you
  • Posts: 3257
  • Thank you received: 1109

franshei wrote: FAS

I have been monitoring CYTX website on and off for a long time. CYTX has not been selling Celution in EU for a long while.


My sophisticated guess is that all future developments in Europe will be AMTP based i.e. the drug route through EMA, since the device regulations are so screwed up in Europe and now with Brexit, the UK device approvals of 2010 and 2012 are not worth much anyway since not pursued in other EU member countries in the past few years.
Even I- as a convinced free trade economist and EU proponent- agree that the past device approvals did not bring a lot (virtually nothing) and the new strategy "dresses up" Cytori nicely as a bride for one of the Basel based medical power houses.

There are quite a few new clinics going on in Europe at present too- this makes me scratch my head all the time since some folks are still doubting the effectiveness of the technology- totally absurd in my view. :whistle:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 13:45 #8740

  • rodney.strongg
  • rodney.strongg's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1237
  • Thank you received: 18
Fas, I have seen the page, but I thought that Franshei in his post was inferring an issue of Harris selling "directly" into Lorem's territory - my misunderstanding.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 15:44 #8741

  • rodney.strongg
  • rodney.strongg's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1237
  • Thank you received: 18
Fas, actually the question of where negotiations with Lorem stand is a legitimate question - I have not been able to get anything out of Tiago on that question other than they are continuing, but that response is vague and continuing much too long.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 17:06 #8742

  • franshei
  • franshei's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 788
  • Thank you received: 102
Fas and Rodney Strong

Regarding Lorem Vascular, my guesses are:

Lorem may argue that they do not have to fulfill terms of the original purchasing agreement, because it applies to the cardiovascular indications and CYTX has discontinued clinical development in this indication to further sales and marketing. Lorem would continue to do business in the assigned territories unless they would drop off the marketing at its own discretion.
Lorem has paid for the rights.

CYTX's arguments to take back the marketing rights are obvious, based on general opinions expressed here and there.

I think the compromise could be: Harris would help them to broaden the sales (such as Celase and Celution IV, on top of Celution 800/CRS) and Lorem has to pay for the CYTX's help. Lorem would not fill the quota per original and amended agreement. Lorem will sell at best.

Realisticly, I think the Chinese market is not easy and I do not think Lorem really knows the market well. I think Lorem needs to find a partner/copartner or partners/copartners in China. I also think Lorem does not have the money to make the marketing awareness.

One thing, CYTX should always be very cautious: piracy of the technology and the device by the locals (they are good in this).

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 04 Feb 2017 17:12 #8743

  • myownhedgefund
  • myownhedgefund's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 2728
  • Thank you received: 199
***There are quite a few new clinics going on in Europe at present too- this makes me scratch my head all the time since some folks are still doubting the effectiveness of the technology- totally absurd in my view. ***

IMHO, forget the efficacy debate...the are practically no sales. Take out the clinics and then what do you have ? This is why there are doubters ! A decade and a half and they are still lucky to get a $ million per quarter. Throw in there is usually more debt than cash on the books and you see why smart money always bets against us.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 05 Feb 2017 03:17 #8744

  • fas
  • fas's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • May the fat be with you
  • Posts: 3257
  • Thank you received: 1109

myownhedgefund wrote: ***There are quite a few new clinics going on in Europe at present too- this makes me scratch my head all the time since some folks are still doubting the effectiveness of the technology- totally absurd in my view. ***

IMHO, forget the efficacy debate...the are practically no sales. Take out the clinics and then what do you have ? This is why there are doubters ! A decade and a half and they are still lucky to get a $ million per quarter. Throw in there is usually more debt than cash on the books and you see why smart money always bets against us.


Hedge- even after 15 years of failure to create any revenues of substance. To me- money and technology are still two different things and always will be.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 05 Feb 2017 04:11 #8745

  • myownhedgefund
  • myownhedgefund's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 2728
  • Thank you received: 199
*** To me- money and technology are still two different things and always will be. ***

You can take the money yardstick out if you like but we still aren't helping many patients.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 05 Feb 2017 10:27 #8747

  • DOV
  • DOV's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 347
  • Thank you received: 194
Fas and Franshei,

I have been told the Celution systems in the EU have been collected to prevent them from switching from cosmetic applications to Scleroderma applications and screwing up the price points. That made sense at the time, but here we are on February 5th and Cytori has yet to treat their first patient in the MAP program. Why? Cytori has only one employee based in the EU, but they also have IDIS, the largest company in the world involved in MAP programs. Is it simply a paperwork nightmare? Is it a price point issue? Is it the lack of Phase III data? For certain, it is more than anticipated.

If I understand the assertions made by some, Cytori is buying Azaya as a diversion so we won't focus on Scleroderma any more. The MAP program is not generating any revenue as expected nor has Cytori been successful in finding a partner for any of their potential applications. Yet, the BOD has been rewarded for their efforts with stock options. I do not recall a time when stock options were awarded to the BOD and not to the management team at the same time. Perhaps this will happen when the management team actually accomplishes something.

For the record, I do not believe the diversion theory. I believe the problem is the price point being established prior to the Phase III data.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 05 Feb 2017 11:10 #8749

  • myownhedgefund
  • myownhedgefund's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 2728
  • Thank you received: 199
Agree on the price point DOV.
Somewhere here I posted such concerns.
Personally, 35K is max price point imho and it may even be lower.
You would think Cytori would have learned the lesson from Okyanos. As if Cytori is ever capable of learning or taking advice...LOL !
I know I argued with many posters about the depth of a self pay market at various times. The effects of chronic disease on motivation and the acceptance of non FDA approved therapies. Most it seemed couldnt see past their own personal positions as reasonably healthy and means to pay.
If we are talking scleroderma...I wonder who has really met a actual scleroderma patient ?
Beyond the hand picked offerings of management or related academia !

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 05 Feb 2017 12:25 #8750

  • rodney.strongg
  • rodney.strongg's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1237
  • Thank you received: 18
Fas, Franshei, HF, DOV - all of the postings on this topic are at the core of the CYTX problem, namely not delivering the results (and partnerships) that s/b expected if the technology is legitimate - until the former happens, CYTX will continue to sell at a disgraceful price per share (currently $.11 pre-split).

PS - Despite disappointments in the past, I believe that 2017 will be the pivotal year for progress - I believe that a breakeven in 2018 is still feasible, but we need to get there with as little dilution as possible in order to reach a respectable price per share that will significantly reduce the book losses that many long-time s/h's have incurred to date.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 05 Feb 2017 15:38 #8751

  • franshei
  • franshei's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 788
  • Thank you received: 102
DOV, FAS and Rodney Strong,

re EU

In my opinion, as long as the second French scleroderma study is still open (a 5th site has been added) and the out of pocket expenses for the patients outside of the study are high, the MAP patient accrual would be difficult.

Before the AZA deal is finally completed by the end of this month, CYTX may not disclose the real benefits for the marriage. Why would they disclose the business plan now for obvious reasons (you can only guess)?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 06 Feb 2017 11:50 #8756

  • fas
  • fas's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • May the fat be with you
  • Posts: 3257
  • Thank you received: 1109

DOV wrote: Fas and Franshei,

I have been told the Celution systems in the EU have been collected to prevent them from switching from cosmetic applications to Scleroderma applications and screwing up the price points.


How does that work? In the period 2009-2012 I counted about 40-50 cosmetic surgeons on cell-enhance.eu which website does not exist any longer. Those guys acquired Celutions which are their property.

Can Cytori simply knock on their doors and say, hey guys, we want our machine back, since you could screw up my scleroderma price point....:whistle:

Is Cytori the Gestapo? or what? After thinking about this, I find this difficult to believe...:KO:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 06 Feb 2017 12:20 #8757

  • rodney.strongg
  • rodney.strongg's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1237
  • Thank you received: 18
Fas, only way that these machines could have been retrieved is if they had been contributed or were on loan to the surgeons - even then, I find it hard to believe that they were taken back - what would be the purpose, how would the "gemisch" for scleroderma become known by them.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Celution 800/CRS and Celution IV 09 Feb 2017 09:14 #8776

  • franshei
  • franshei's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 788
  • Thank you received: 102
DOV and FAS and Rodney Strong,

I often reread past mail.

DOV's last message here is very interesting: BOD gets stock option and the senior management has not yet.

It has been three years, since Hedrick has been CYTX chief and his CEO report card based on the stock performance is a big sham. I think the BOD has finally offered Hedrick and his team some strong words to perform or else (does Hedrick has a 3 year contract?). Hedrick and team has really a bad track record: OA, MAP, financial deals, etc.....

I think, if the following events would take place, Hedrick and his team could be safe:

1. 2018 breakeven, with strong revenue from Japan (so far Harris has done a great job in Asia).
2. Star positive data and successful FDA filing.
3. LipoAdriamycin marketing partnership.
4.Liopdocetaxel phase 2/3 r/d partnership, leading to marketing.
5.4 and 5 generate cash.
6. AZA -CYTX synergism generates a new promising r/d pipeline (something like nanotechnology for regenerative medicine, a juicy name).

Just my opinion

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Time to create page: 0.142 seconds

Copyright Information

Copyright Fas Kuiters © 2016 young-foxes.com. All Rights Reserved.
This page is made with Joomla CMS and its various templates designed by Fas Kuiters with the excellent Themler tool.

 

 

Shared Spreadsheet Links

DOV´s Revised Projections for the Periods 2017 until 2020

Shareble link : HERE

Fas Kuiters Websites