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TOPIC: Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis

Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 14 Oct 2013 10:59 #963

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 14 Oct 2013 12:12 #964

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Nice one Joey.

I will post this one at LinkedIn and see what the knee experts have to say on this.. Centeno et al. :grin:

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 14 Oct 2013 14:58 #965

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Well I don't think Centeno will like it. As far as I know he believes BMDSC are the way to go.
If Regenus received approval for this do you think that Cytori's system would also be allowed to be used for this indication?

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 14 Oct 2013 15:59 #966

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We will see Joey- this clinic DOES reads like it has a very scientific approach and is therefore NOT to be taken lightly.

From the announcement it reads like the product is some mix of stromal cells AND SVF (i.e. the Cytori gimish)and some adipocytes (do not know what they could be good for, except a filler) , so plainly different and they would not need Celution at all.

Than again- Cytori has 8 Ortho/sport clinics sponsored by private investigators ongoing- that will provide results also in due course. :yep:

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Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 15 Oct 2013 05:05 #967

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From Ceteno´s website -Regenexx.com I copied this little piece on his Regenexx-AD procedure-

Adipose derived stem cells are a great concept. You perform a little liposuction and process cells. The problem is that while there are many stem cells in fat, these cells are best at making more fat. So for cosmetic purposes, fat derived stem cells are a perfect fit. However, are they a good fit for orthopedic purposes? By themselves, not so much. We have blogged on the studies showing that fat cells under perform bone marrow stem cells for orthopedic purposes. So how can you use the best properties of both cell types? In Regenexx-AD we do just that. The procedure begins with our standard Regenexx-SD procedure (containing better bone marrow stem cells) and then add in a mini-liposuction. The fat tissue (which contains many stem cells) is used for a structural fat graft. What’s that? Fat has been used in joints by surgeons for many years to prevent excess bone formation and to help healing. An example of where we might use Regenexx-AD is with a degenerated meniscus. Often after meniscus surgeries that remove pieces of the meniscus, what’s left of the remaining meniscus will migrate out of the joint. This new meniscus position isn’t optimal and it tends to add to joint arthritis. In addition, the new position can cause to bone spurs on the side of the joint as the bone literally grows to allow the new meniscus position to remain functional. The Regenexx-AD procedure uses fat tissue to put pressure on the remaining meniscus and prevent it’s migration out of the joint. Rather than doing this surgically (as was done in the past), Regenexx-AD can be performed through an injection, speeding recovery time. In addition, since the fat tissue does contain many stem cells, they can also assist in healing. The best of both worlds.
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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 15 Oct 2013 10:38 #968

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*** The problem is that while there are many stem cells in fat, these cells are best at making more fat.***

WRONG !

Stem cells do NOT make fat !!!!!!!!!

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 15 Oct 2013 14:00 #969

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Stem cells do NOT make fat !!!!!!!!!


Oh yes- they do. The original paper from Zuk et al plated the 2% stem cells i.e. MSCs from fat and proved they can differentiate in the mesodermal lineages- i.e. fat, bone, cartilage and myocites. You can read this summarized again in the Zuk paper that she wrote in 2010, which is the starting point for fat-cell.com- Zuk- ADRCs-looking back and looking ahead

Its likely that this 2% of MSCs are resident and just like MSC from Bone marrow there most easiest differentiation relates to the local tissue- i.e. fat for MSCs from fat and bone for marrow MSCs. But those cells are NOT important period. Its the pericytes- MSC precursors which are abundant in fat and the endothelial cells for all kinds of stuff. Chris Centeno is more "old style" and cultures preferably. :grin:

I still have to write my article about it- Fat cells- the injury drugstore. :write: but have had little energy off late. :cry:

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 15 Oct 2013 17:00 #970

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Fas...i just did a half-hearted search for something I heard long before I knew Cytori ever existed and maybe you are aware of this and/or maybe I have some mis-understanding of what was being said at that time.

Basically you are born with all the fat cells you will ever have and as you add or lose fat it is removed from a honey-comb like structure.
This "honey-comb" expands or shinks depending on the amount of fat stored in the body. Therefore, my understanding is that while it would be possible to regenerate the "honey-comb" structure that holds and stores the fat...I felt that actual fat creation would not come from stem cells.
I hope I am explaining myself well enough...LOL

Now again...perhaps I am wrong...but consider the following.

If stem cells are present in our bodies to facilitate healing...why cant (or would they under the article you posted) they create fat to save a staving person for a least a extended period of time ?

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 07:29 #971

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Hedge-

I believe that "honey-comb" theory I wrote myself on the Yahoo MB one time in response to a WST question. I believe its partially true. But the real fat cells- i.e. adipocytes are not immortal either. They die if dont get their nutrition etc - so tissue necrosis occurs like it can happen in any part of the body and with all tissue types.

Cytori replaces missing or dying fat with fat from other parts of the body. Peter Rubin (Pittsburgh) more follows the differentiation pathway.
Its all about repairing tissue either through trans-differentiation or repairing through paracrine- or induced with stimulation of resident cells.

And that applies to ALL tissue types which are in the body. Fat inclusive.

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 08:44 #972

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Hi Fas

You may indeed have mentioned the "honey-comb like structures" on the YMB at some point but I am fairly certain I heard this before then...and if it saw it on the YMB I probably simply agreed to myself. I seem to remember it as quite some time ago and having to do with in conjunction of how people loose and gain weight. I also do know it wasnt from a scientific paper as you referenced but it made a impression and I remembered it. Of course..this is how I remembered it and as I said perhaps my memory was being a bit faulty with the details.

Also, after I posted originally, and I read your initial resonse I began to think well maybe we are saying the same think in a way...that the honey-comb like structure was basically the cell walls and fat molecules are exchanged in and out of them. This seems plausable to me because I just dont see how a stem cell creates actual fat. Thoughts ?

On another topic...seems Cytori is now showing 3 studies being run in the USA...I guess we can count Athena 1 and 2 as two studies but do you have any idea what the third study would be ?

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 09:47 #973

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On another topic...seems Cytori is now showing 3 studies being run in the USA...I guess we can count Athena 1 and 2 as two studies but do you have any idea what the third study would be ?


What is your source? Clinicaltrials.gov? In that case under Cytori there is still an age old Surgiwrap clinic in LA listed I believe. You know what happened to that product I am sure.

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 09:56 #974

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Slide from yesterdays presentation.

The one where it shows # of trials in each region.

Under USA it was changed from 1 to 3

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 12:04 #975

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Ok
This one here than-



I must admit- this drives me nuts and banana´s. I think, Cytori purposely changes their format of presentation just to confuse everybody.

IR is surely the worst on the globe- anyway- just read the headline and grasp what it says.
Than compare to the image on the frontpage - WHICH includes Cytori clinics (which was one (1)

So what does that tell you?
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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 12:47 #976

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Yes..I see now.
I never did listen to the presentation but later decided to skim through the slides just to see if there was something different.
So I am now assuming they are counting BARDA work in the new slide.
Was that your take ?

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 13:22 #977

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Hedge- there are no requirements for BARDA to investigate humans - just animals, as far as I know.

In the EU clinicians can start studies with Celution for virtually any indication without much hassle in view of the broad Celution CE claims.

In the US- Celution is NOT approved and requires an IDE (Investigational Device Exemption)- which includes the FDA, , IRB and ethics approval before a human study can start.

I do NOT want to guess- I simply conclude that Cytori is withholding information AGAIN in matters that interests its shareholders greatly. :bash:

That is unless someone f*cked up a slide - but that happens very rarely.
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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 16 Oct 2013 13:47 #978

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LOL...but guessing is often what Cytori leaves us with !!!!

Anyway...thanks for your comments.

BTW...I see there is a new registered user today...closing in on #100 and nearly 1000 post so far.
I'd say the board you created is a success.
Congrats Fas !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woohoo:

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 17 Oct 2013 09:44 #979

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Fas heres a guess from me.
Calhoun has the backing of a few major shareholders namely Astellas and Olympus. They are advising him to withhold certain information and clinical data for consideration in the future.
Astella and Olympus don't care what the share price is.
Just a thought because I cant figure this company out...

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 17 Oct 2013 13:01 #980

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Joey-

Your guess is as good as mine.

We both do not know at present, but will find out some fine sunny day.

I just hope it will not take too long since my nerves are about to collapse, although I am not like others that always seem to say- I will give them "x-days/months" before I make a decision to sell my stake. I simply NEVER will. :really:

For obvious reasons.... :yawn:

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 17 Oct 2013 14:58 #981

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I still think that if there are indeed 3 studies going on in the USA it has to be BARDA.

Cytori went to court and lost to be able to facilitate celution sales/usage under the caveat of "study usage"

If the FDA hasnt approved it...what could they be counting imho ?

Either they are counting the current BARDA work (note slide says "research customers" ) or they got some special deal through BARDA from the FDA.
Also, Although a bit misleading...they slide gives no indication that they are only counting human trials.

We are all just guessing...but BARDA related seems most likely...followed by a slide mistake.

To joeys point...a third possibility would be if someone like Olympus or Astellas ran a small trial here before the FDA stopped them...I just dont know as this would be pretty old in this senario so why bring it up now ? I dont see a recent trial possibility w/o FDA approval.

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Adiposec stem cell trial for knee osteoarthritis 17 Oct 2013 16:43 #982

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I know I am kind of beating a dead horse here...but would they so bold to count Alopecia indication now ?

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